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My Discussion With Jen Rubin And Norm Eisen

Simon Rosenberg, Jennifer Rubin, and Norman Eisen

Jan 26

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Greetings all. Sending along a recording above and transcript below of a timely conversation I had this morning with Jen Rubin and Norm Eisen over at The Contrarian.

During our discussion we reference three things written in recent days:

Jen’s new column How to Stop the Fascism
My essay, We Must Choose Freedom, which argues that Dems must now forge a unified national front against Trump’s escalating authoritarianism
This morning’s Hopium post, “The Senate and the White House are suddenly in the middle of the most serious political crisis of.....Trump’s second term”

Keep working hard all. Trump’s stumbles and dangerous overreach are creating a big opportunity for the pro-democracy movement right now. Let’s work on seizing it, together - Simon

Transcript - Simon Rosenberg with Jen Rubin and Norm Eisen (1/26/2026)

Jen Rubin:
You will see our special guest, Simon Rosenberg with us. Norm will be joining momentarily.

Simon Rosenberg:
Morning.

Jen Rubin:
Good morning everyone. I hope you in the path of the storm are warm and safe. Wow, we have people just pouring in this morning. I love it when our west coast friends get up early for us. Good morning… well, we were here over the weekend because obviously events were fast moving and we didn’t want to wait until this morning to talk to all of you. We’re very lucky to have Simon Rosenberg who is from my vantage point the best analyst, pollster, political insider, political outsider… has his finger on the pulse of the American people. So Norm will be with us shortly. As you can imagine, he is very busy today, but we're going to get underway on with the very latest from Minneapolis. All of us have seen the horrific picture and multiple videos now of the murder. Here's Norm.

The murder of Alex Pretti. We've heard the lies. We have seen the people of Minneapolis react, really heroically. Simon, something has plainly changed. Even since the murder of Renee Goode, something is going on. Republicans are now calling for a hearing. The administration, Donald Trump, would not defend the shooter yesterday. Democrats have come out forcefully. We're not going to be funding the DHS. What has finally shifted? What do we see, the tectonic plates creaking as we speak?

Simon Rosenberg:
Well, I do think everything has changed. And when you wake this morning in sort of the insidery DC press… it was full of Republicans being fearful and worried about the incredible mess that Trump has created for them in an already perilous political moment where the midterms were likely to go against them. This is pushing them further and further away from the electorate. And the way I describe it is that Republicans are becoming wary of defending the indefensible. This is another moment in that evolution. And so, you know, what we've seen… the stories are all about ways to mitigate the damage. Trump just announced on social media that he's sending Tom Homan into Minnesota. But they are running away from this and they're not embracing this. Even this morning, in breaking news, one of the Republican candidates for governor in Minnesota just dropped out of the race because he said he can't defend the Republican Party right now in Minnesota, right. And so, Punchbowl News called it the greatest crisis of the Trump second term. And I think for Democrats, Jen, and we spoke earlier this morning, this is a time for courage, bravery, to be on offense, to prosecute our case. The country is with us.

Trump and the regime is killing people in the street wantonly and was given encouragement by JD Vance just last week when he was in Minnesota. So, you know, in the next week this battle that's going to begin… it will be going on for the next few years, you know, we have to be encouraging our leaders to show courage, bravery and ambition and to really defend the American people as they're being killed in the streets.

Jen Rubin:
You know, I think politicians have finally figured out that people will stand up for democracy. This is what we've been talking about. This is tyranny. And perhaps democracy was an inapt way to describe the battle against tyranny. But I do think, as you say, Simon, there are a whole slew of things Democrats can and should be doing. We were speaking earlier… the immediate issue before us is the spending of DHS. I don't know any Republican who's going to vote in the Senate now to do that. What happens with the funding and what else should Democrats at this point be demanding?

Simon Rosenberg:
Yeah, I mean, this is going to get very interesting because what happened last week in the House was they packed together a bunch of these appropriations bills into a package, sent it off to the Senate, and then they left town. Meaning that Mike, I call him the cowardly speaker, ran away. Instead of being here in case the Senate had any changes, they set this up that if there were any changes at all, then the government would go through a partial shutdown. And what's happened now is the DHS funding bill, the appropriations for the $60 billion, $70 billion, and whatever it is, the Democrats have said they're not going to vote for it. And so then if the Republicans keep it in the package, then the whole package goes down there's then a partial shutdown on Friday. It seems like we're inevitably going to head there and the government will partially shut down and then we're in another shutdown battle. And so the question then becomes is there any deal that any of us could ever imagine where the administration agrees to our demands to reform ICE, whatever our demands are going to be in this negotiation.

And that's still to be seen. You know, can we ever get to a deal on this? And so, this is a sustained, long fight. And part of what I have been arguing, just to finish, is that it would be wise for Schumer and Jeffries to engage the governors, the attorneys general, big city mayors all across the country to make this a unified front against tyranny. And to fight to rein in ICE because this affects all of us. Schumer and Jeffries, this is not only their fight. This is all of our fights. And we need to learn from the Europeans. Denmark was attacked. They rallied together. They used their might. Trump backed down. We have to learn from that example to really rally all national Democrats to create a unified front against this. This isn't going to be a week-long, two-week-long thing. For as long as they're in office, we're going to be fighting this, and we need to organize ourselves to have more power to make sure that we're more successful in the battle ahead.

Jen Rubin:
Norm, my piece today, and friends out there, is all about all of the ideas that are out there, all of the proposals that would restrain, curtail ICE and Border Patrol. And also about hearings, also about seeking accountability from Kristi Noem up to and including impeachment. Norm, one of the rallying cries has been for an “independent investigation.” My view is that there is no independent investigation that could possibly be done by the feds. That what we need is them to cooperate fully and allow the state to investigate both murders. What do you think is the way forward in terms of accountability on this particular execution, actually two executions now, and then the sorts of reforms that Democrats should be pushing for?

Norm Eisen:
And I'll tell you what's not the way forward, Jen. Sending Tom Homan to Minnesota, as Donald Trump has just announced he's going to do. This is the same individual who is accused of allegedly selling access, accepting a Cava bag full of tens of thousands of dollars of cash. So that pours fuel on the fire. The thing that would alleviate the conflagration is to let state and local law enforcement investigate this matter as they're capable of doing. The federal government, whether it's DHS… they're the ones who have been driving the cover-up… they can't possibly be trusted to investigate. And then who really believes that Donald Trump's complicit Department of Justice and FBI could ever investigate this?

That lack of independence is the price of Donald Trump installing his own defense lawyers, in the case of DOJ, and his own most vehement defenders in the case of the FBI. Totally destroying their independence. The reason we typically have had an independent FBI director serving for a period of ten years, transcending particular presidential administrations, is just for moments like this. So the entire executive branch is complicit. They can't do it. Let the state and local officials do it. Bless them. They went to court to preserve their right to do it, to get access. I think we will see a state and local investigation. And one other very important question Potential oversight avenue that we shouldn't neglect is Congress where we've seen some stirrings of bipartisanship around this. If Congress is genuinely prepared to do something bipartisan and independent, congressional oversight could play a role also. But we don't know if the president's party is capable of that. Certainly the minority is.

Jen Rubin:
Yeah, absolutely. There is a variety of things that can be done. But of course, the central problem is that we have a regime, frankly, that is filled with monsters and is incapable of faithfully carrying out the laws. That doesn't mean we should not put forth a whole series of restrictions, reforms, or that we shouldn't seek the removal of Kristi Noem.

Simon, as we were preparing for this morning, you said something very interesting. That it's not just the executions and the other crimes we see in big cities, but there is an epidemic of illegality sweeping across Minnesota and other states perpetrated by DHS. Talk to us about that and really the everyday criminality of these shock troops.

Simon Rosenberg:
I think there's two parts to this. You know, at the end of last year, Trump ended the year in a bad place. The Epstein files have been partially released. His poll numbers had gone down. He'd been publicly embarrassed. The Supreme Court moved against their ability to have the troops in the streets. So the end of the year was a crash for them. And, you know, we had just done so well in the elections. And I think there was somehow, I think Vance and Miller, the Vance-Miller faction in the White House convinced the president to dramatically escalate not only in Minnesota, but also in Venezuela and in Greenland.

The assertion that ran through all of this was that, and Miller said this on CNN and Trump said it in the New York Times interview, that there were no longer any checks to their power globally or domestically. They had essentially announced that they were no longer bound by law or even that they were acknowledging the propriety of law itself. This was a global and domestic declaration that both of them made together in the same week, just a few weeks ago. And JD Vance famously went up on stage and said that the people in Minnesota… his ICE agents… had absolute immunity, which of course is not something that could exist in a democracy of any kind that we understand. So I think that they are acting literally lawlessly everywhere. That they have decided in their diseased minds in the Vance-Miller faction. What happened last week is that when they tried to seize Greenland, you know, the Europeans stood up to them in a very powerful way and they retreated from their insanity. And now we have to do the same thing here in the US… to get them to retreat from this declaration of independence from law.

What's happening on the ground with ICE is is that they are acting completely outside of the law in any way. When they break a window of a car, that's illegal. When they push a woman to the ground, that's illegal. They are acting as if they have absolute immunity and impunity to do whatever they want. Now, why would they believe that? Because they were told by JD Vance and by the administration that they had absolute immunity and impunity. Vance went to Minnesota last week, right before the second killing… the second murder… to defend ICE and what they were doing in Minnesota. So the blood… I think that part of Jen, just strategically, what we really have to focus on now… if you're the guys in elections in 2026 in the Republican Party… the people that are causing this are Vance and Miller. Kristi Noem is just an operator in this whole thing. This is a Vance-Miller play. We gotta tie this to JD Vance. We gotta tie this to Stephen Miller. This is both of their strategies and, you know, they are bringing ruin to the Republican Party. It is amazing that Trump had one of his greatest humiliations of his presidency last week in Europe, where he looked like a bumbling fool to the world, and was humiliated and humiliated himself for his performance… he's about to go through a second process here. And it's why the pro-democracy forces in the United States have an obligation and a responsibility to prosecute this at the most aggressive possible level because they're weak and we need to seize the opportunity in front of us here.

Jen Rubin:
Absolutely. And the other people who have blood on their hands is every Republican who voted for that big, ugly bill which contained $75 billion and supercharged this rampage of illegality. So Miller, Vance, Trump, but every Republican. Susan Collins has shock troops on the ground in her own state. Where is her liability? People need to get out peacefully in front of her office, call her office and demand she do something about it. It's not good enough for her to be concerned any longer.

Norm, there are proceedings in the Eighth Circuit today. There are multiple lawsuits out there. Tell us from a legal standpoint where the cases lie and what could we expect from the Eighth Circuit, which, as we all know, is one of the worst, most MAGA’ized circuits in the country.

Norm Eisen:
Despite the terrible imbalance on the Eighth Circuit, which is quite to the right of even the Roberts Court, they rejected an effort to mandamus lower court judges who refused to charge Don Lemon, for example, for simply covering a protest as part of the bullying tactics that Simon describes. Because fascism was going so poorly, they decided to double down on it. Unfortunately, they put an administrative stay on a very moderate set of restrictions that the democracy movement, in that case led by the ACLU, secured before Judge Kate Mendoza. Judge Mendoza will hear another case today, Jen, on behalf of the state and the city of Minneapolis to limit ICE's presence. So that is going to be in district court. And one more important win. Over the weekend, the state and the lower county and city authorities sued to save all the evidence. The lead plaintiff was the BCA, the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, the investigative body essentially of the state. The evidence of the Pretti killing… and they got a TRO in that case. So, we often say here, Simon, as you know, the courts won't save us, but we won't be saved without them.

And I think what we're seeing was from those early days, Jen, when we were sometimes a small group, lonely voices supported by the Contrarians, litigating in the court of law, but also the court of public opinion while mainstream media was capitulating, that has now become a true nationwide democracy movement. I was talking over the weekend with Bill Kristol about the comparisons to the Civil Rights Movement and the atrocities, 1963 in Montgomery, 1965 in Selma, how that galvanized the nation. We're in that kind of a galvanic moment. And the litigation is now taking its proper place as one, but not the only avenue of redress.

Jen Rubin:
Whether it was the horrific scenes of women jumping to their death at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire that ignited the labor movement or the beatings on the Edmund Pettus Bridge, it takes something like that to finally shake Americans. Simon, we are at a point at which Democrats in some regard have to go big. Their hesitancy, their timidity about not wanting to abolish ICE, about not wanting to seek impeachment of various figures, about not talking about immigration is yesterday's news.

What's the posture now long term? What has to be the end goal, the end objective of all of this political action? Is it November? Is it taking back power? Is it sufficiently weakening the regime so that this becomes a moral movement, a bipartisan movement? What are we doing right now? What should we be doing right now?

Simon Rosenberg:
It's a great question. Let me give you my sort of big picture answer and then I'll drill down and I'll do it quick. I think that we have to start recognizing after year one of this battle, the shock and awe and how slow we were, frankly, to respond. Not Norm and not you, but you know, the broad collective family. You know, in the Revolutionary War, we got off to a slow start and Lincoln had a slow start in the Civil War until he found his Grant. We got off to a slow start in World War II as well, but we ended up prevailing in all those battles because we learned and we rallied and we grew. And we got stronger and stronger through the fight and the engagement.

And I think we have to almost identify this as a global struggle for freedom and democracy where our goal is that in ten years, we don't accept the idea that oligarchy and autocracy are going to consolidate and prevail against freedom and democracy here and all around the world. And that this is a battle that's going to be going on for another ten years. And we have to win. We have to start visualizing what victory looks like and then building a global politics towards that, of which we are now a frontline combatant against the forces of autocracy and oligarchy. What does that mean in simple English for this year, right? What it means is that, yes, we have to continue to degrade the administration and the regime and weaken it every day. We have to focus on the elections.

But what we have to do now… and I think this is why this moment is so important… we were successful in 2025 politically and electorally, right? We had some tremendous elections and we gained back power. What we didn't do well was we didn't stop the harms of the regime. That was not something that was a major focus of the movement. And he has done enormous harm to us globally and domestically. This moment is where we're beginning to sort of gain a second muscle, a necessary thing in 2026 where we're going to mobilize to stop the harms of the regime. And this is a huge evolution in the pro-democracy movement in the United States. The best way out is always through. We have to encourage our leaders to dive into this fight not knowing where we're going to be. I mean, I had a talk with a very senior advisor to one of the leaders yesterday, who admittedly said, we have no idea where this is going and where we're going to be in a few weeks. Which is a very uncomfortable place for people in Washington, but we're here now, and we have to encourage our leaders. For everyone who's watching, what to do today, call Congress… call your senators, call your rep, regardless of party, demand that they rein in ICE, demand that ICE leave Minnesota.

This should be a universal cry across the whole country. They need to hear from us because we're at a critical juncture where Republicans are really stumbling and where we have to take advantage of that opportunity to prosecute our case.

Norm Eisen:
Simon, would you accept a friendly amendment?

Simon Rosenberg:
Yeah, sure.

Norm Eisen:
Because I think that the movement was actually successful in stopping many of the harms of the regime. And the Contrarians were a part of many of those fights. We've defended the guardrails, whether it's getting the criminal cases thrown out against the two leading cases, Comey and Tish James, plus so many others around the country… the constitutional successes, getting injunctions against Trump's effort to take over elections. The Contrarians helped us represent those brave Texas legislators. And then we went to California and defended Prop 50. Democracy Defenders Action. Birthright Citizenship where we got an injunction. So many other places we did defend the guardrails. You Contrarians supported 50,000… we got injunctions stopping the firings of over 50,000 federal government employees.

Of course, the death and destruction was vast. Stuff got through. The thing we haven't done successfully that we must do in 2026 in the court of law and in the court of public opinion is not just to defend the guardrails, but to go on offense, to do the breakthrough strategies, to sue the Stephen Millers and the Kristi Noems. And friends, watch this space.

Simon Rosenberg:
Yeah. To just respond to Norm quickly is that I will take your amendment. And what I was really alluding to is what the politicians need to do. You've been there, and you've been fighting and the Democratic attorneys general and all of you who have been fighting in the courts have had an unbelievable, incredibly inspiring set of victories.

And of course, the courts are still operating where rule of law exists, which is why the administration continues to get so embarrassed when they go into court, right? I mean, you've seen even some of the judges in the last few days being like, if I can say it, what the F*** are you guys sending us? What we now need is the political class, the elected officials in Washington need to raise their game and develop this additional muscle to not be satisfied that we're going to sort of win the midterms and get our power back. We need to create this additional power, political power, and the Europeans have showed us how to do it. And so I think that's the next stage, Norm. So, in my public commentary, I'm going to amend my narrative. And I'll call it the Norm Amendment. But of course you're right about that.

Jen Rubin:
And I'll give you a visual image. It's like in the Terminator movies. We knock them down, but the blob reformulates. We now have to go after the blob. We shatter them, but somehow they reconstitute themselves in other places. Ultimately, this is a political battle. It will not be won in the courts.

Before we go to what we are looking forward to, we would be hugely remiss if we did not salute the people of Minneapolis. Who turned out 50,000 strong in 20-degree-below weather on Friday, who have taken to the streets. We see what happened to Renee Good. We see what happened to Alex Pretti because ordinary citizens armed only with their cameras stood on the streets, filmed them, risking their lives, and in some cases being martyrs to democracy so that we could advance the cause of freedom.

And whether they are new to the game, whether they are half-hearted, like some of the business folks finally getting out kind of a halfway mealy-mouthed statement in Minnesota, or whether they’ve been there from the beginning, like labor unions, they are in the fight now. And we have to salute them. We have to encourage them. And I will say, even the legacy media, look at the front pages. I know it’s hard, but look at the front pages today of the New York Times, the Washington Post, Wall Street Journal. They are calling out lies. False equivalents, the whataboutism, the mealy mouth language… because they know the American people will not stand for it.

Simon, in all of this, I am horrified. I’m saddened, but I’m also filled with hope. What gives you hope? What are you looking forward to?

Simon Rosenberg:
I think the thing that I come back to in this moment is we wouldn't be here if it weren’t for the bravery and courage of the people in Minnesota. Watching these videos in the cold weather, unbelievably cold weather, people just walking up directly, engaging with people, guns drawn on the streets in their neighborhoods. No Americans have ever, you know… in modern times have seen something like this, you know, exactly like this. What makes me hopeful, what makes me optimistic is that I think that the people of Minnesota… just like the Europeans showed us a path forward last week… the people of Minnesota have inspired and lifted us all up, and given us courage and bravery, and put tremendous pressure on our elected leaders to meet their ambition and their courage and bravery. And so, what makes me optimistic is what has always made me optimistic through this whole process, which is the American people themselves. And because, Jen, remember, we're Americans, fighting for freedom and democracy is what we do. It's who we are. That's our role in the world. And let's get on with it. And the people of Minnesota have reminded us of that. And it leaves me optimistic this morning.

Norm Eisen:
Jen, I have been struck by our commentators who are reminding us, like Patrick, that this is the reality that Black Americans have lived with in our country since the beginning of the country. Very privileged to call Barack Obama a friend. Of course we went to law school together. We met the first week we were at law school. And when I worked in his White House as his special counsel, I was so inspired by his words about the path to achieve the promise of our country. And I'm looking forward to getting back to dealing with the directionality of progress in our country and of living up to our founding ideals in this 250th year of our existence.

And I agree with you and Simon that this is a foundational or a re-foundational moment that we're living through for the democracy movement, like all the examples of 1963 and 1965 and the examples that Jen gave, where you have a visual, an image, whether it's described or seen. Donald Trump didn't count on all those cell phones. Whether it's described or seen. And so I think we need to rededicate ourselves to that long term vision and we need to be thinking about the day after tomorrow together. So when we do reboot, we're ready to seize the moment and restart that trajectory of living up to our values. That's what I'm looking forward to.

Jen Rubin:
Absolutely. And I am looking forward to the people of Minnesota having a day where they wake up and ICE and Border Patrol are not on their street. I look forward to the country rising in their defense, demanding these people leave. Even Republicans are beginning to suggest that that's the way out. And giving the people of Minneapolis an opportunity to heal, to recover, and to take some pride and satisfaction in having roused a nation.

Many people claim the heritage of starting the revolution. People in Lexington and Concord are very proud that it started there. One day, I think we'll look back and say, in Minneapolis, we had another American revolution, another blow against tyranny. So I look forward to giving them some peace of mind, some comfort, some solace. And we hope that all of us can rise to the defense of our country the way they have.

So friends, thank you for joining us over the weekend several times. We really enjoyed being with you. We were happy to bring you special coverage. We're going to be here throughout the week, obviously. Our own Katie Phang is going to be in Minnesota, both on our YouTube, and we'll have her live here tomorrow as well to report on the goings on. Simon, thank you, as always, for your big picture analysis, your insight, your optimism. And we are going to win this, friends. For the first time, I think many people are seeing what Norm and I saw, which is Americans will stand up for democracy. They do not want to be ruled by tyranny. Take away their First Amendment rights… take away their Fourth Amendment rights… take away their Second Amendment rights. And you have roused a dragon. So let's be brave, folks. Let's get engaged. Call your congressmen, your senators today. Thanks so much. Thank you, Contrarians. Thank you, Simon. We will look forward to seeing you soon. Take care, everyone. Bye-bye.

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